| Author |
Message |
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:25 am Post subject:
Photos of the First Few Microseconds of an Atomic Blast
Subject description: Ever wondered what an atomic blast looks like? |
  |
|
| Quote: | | Edgerton built a special lens 10 feet long for his camera which was set up in a bunker 7 miles from the source of the blast which was triggered Nevada - the bomb placed atop a steel gantry anchored to the desert floor by guide wires. The exposures are at 1/100,000,000ths of a second. |
http://www.rapidnewswire.com/atom.htm
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:
|
|
|
 scary
_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube
| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:
|
|
|
yes- very disturbing indeed.
Also equally disturbing is that the US government dropped two of them on Japan, when America knew that Japan were ready to surrender anyway.
NB (edit) and also note despite what you see written below, I'm not talking nonsense this time.
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18524
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 266
G2 patch files: 60
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| v-un-v wrote: | | Also equally disturbing is that the US government dropped two of them on Japan, when America knew that Japan were ready to surrender anyway. |
There is not universal agreement on this, Tom.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/nuclear_05.shtml is a very interesting article that addresses this topic.
| BBC - Duncan Anderson wrote: | | Also thanks to the work of Japanese historians, we now know much more about Japanese plans in the summer of 1945. Japan had no intention of surrendering. It had husbanded over 8,000 aircraft, many of them Kamikazes, hundreds of explosive-packed suicide boats, and over two million well equipped regular soldiers, backed by a huge citizen’s militia. When the Americans landed, the Japanese intended to hit them with everything they had, to impose on them casualties that might break their will. If this did not do it, then the remnants of the army and the militias would fight on as guerrillas, protected by the mountains and by the civilian population. |
...
| BBC - Duncan Anderson wrote: | | The losses in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, but not as terrible as the number of Japanese who would have died as the result of an invasion. The revisionist historians of the 1960s - and their disciples - are quite wrong to depict the decision to use the bombs as immoral. It would have been immoral if they had not been used. |
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
History is what has happened. It is quite OK to discuss events but then it must be observed that in war a lot of stuff makes perfect sense, but then the decisions made will still kill people. There are very few ways to kill people without people getting killed. Is there such a thing as nice and ethical violent deaths? I don´t think so. War is like cyanid. One drop and you are dead.
There are many possibly futures and possibly pasts.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18524
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 266
G2 patch files: 60
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Yes, history serves us best when we don't make it up in order to make our current enemy look bad.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Alternate futures.
Consider what could have happened if the UK Air Ministry had been given both resources and some bright minds at around 1935.
There could have been large numbers of ( improved ) Westland Whirlwinds, Hurricanes and Spitfires available to the RAF by July 1940. Luftwaffe could have been taken apart from day one, and Britain could have had complete air supremacy by the end of 1940. The success of the Whirlwind would have made the development of the Mosquito much faster. The Air Ministry would have invested more in extremely fast twin engined fighter-bombers.
The british high command might even have chosen to not surrender Narvik to the germans. Another matter is that none of this might have actually shortened the war significantly. Instead it might have prolonged the war to say 1948-1950. Who knows?
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18524
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 266
G2 patch files: 60
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | Consider what could have happened if the UK Air Ministry had been given both resources and some bright minds at around 1935.
There could have been large numbers of ( improved ) Westland Whirlwinds, Hurricanes and Spitfires available to the RAF by July 1940. |
I had a 1966 Triumph Spitfire. What a ton of fun that car was. Mine was baby-blue. Didn't have those nice wire wheels though.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| mosc wrote: | | v-un-v wrote: | | Also equally disturbing is that the US government dropped two of them on Japan, when America knew that Japan were ready to surrender anyway. |
There is not universal agreement on this, Tom.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/nuclear_05.shtml is a very interesting article that addresses this topic.
|
Nope it's an opinion Mosc- just like yours is. However, in a typical sensationalist modern-BBC poorly researched fashion, where is the evidence to support this?.....ahh, edit;
| Quote: |
About the author
Duncan Anderson joined the War Studies Department at Sandhurst as a senior lecturer in 1987, and has been head of department since 1997. He has written several books on World War Two, and worked for the British Army and other NATO forces in Germany, both lecturing and conducting staff tours. |
Biased? I think so! Especially when you Google Sandhurst- the first thing it comes up with is this;
http://www.atra.mod.uk/atra/rmas/
| Quote: | | Any means that could bring Nazi rule to an end could be justified, which is why a statue of Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris now stands in Whitehall. |
Oh come on! What about Alan Turing? I could argue that Alan Turing bought the Nazi's (and the whole of WW2 if you want) to a standstill. It could also be argued that without the Russian front things could have gone very differently indeed.
http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/
| Quote: | | The first Americans to reach Hiroshima and Nagasaki - servicemen, scientists and journalists - described in great detail the apocalyptic scenes they encountered. They saw a grey, blasted landscape, in which thousands of hideously burnt people were huddled in shanties, coughing up and urinating blood, with their hair falling out in clumps, waiting to die. |
Very true and very horrific indeed- but none of this answers my real question;
So why two A-bombs? Why not just one?? The above images demonstrate the explosive power of an atom bomb. One A-bomb obliterated a whole city. The US had done the tests in the Nevada desert. They knew exactly what the effects of one blast would do to a population of a city. Isn't this enough to send a message to the Japanese about the power of the US military force? IMO, this is a very important point and I think you should take time to consider it.
Also ask yourselves why every one of the thousands (over 120,000) of Japanese-Americans (many American born) were rounded up and imprisoned in camps in the USA during WW2?
Please take your time to read this following article. It too is a very interesting read;
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CACD0.htm
Then when you have read that article, I urge you to read up on Steven Pinker's (an absolutely brilliant mind, IMO) theory of the 'Hobbesian trap';
| Quote: | | The ''Hobbesian trap,'' in which a nation is tempted to attack a neighbor out of fear that it would otherwise attack first, like an armed homeowner who surprises an armed burglar, tempting each to shoot first to avoid being shot. |
Better still, just read some Pinker anyway  I can recommend 'The Blank Slate' as a starting point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Pinker
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/
Then when you've done all that- re-watch all 3 episodes 'The Power of Nightmares' by Adam Curtis. It's simplistic but it does help bridge the gap between WW2, the A-bomb, the cold war and now the 'war on terror'.
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
14.14 KB |
| Viewed: |
216 Time(s) |
| This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
|
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | | The success of the Whirlwind would have made the development of the Mosquito much faster. |
ahh the Mosquito! Its wooden design is geodesic based.
The geodesic dome invented by Buckminster Fuller. What a jolly good fellow
http://www.designmuseum.org/design/forums.html?id=105
then look at this;
http://www.designmuseum.org/design/
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18524
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 266
G2 patch files: 60
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:47 am Post subject:
|
|
|
| v-un-v wrote: |
Nope it's an opinion Mosc- just like yours is. However, in a typical sensationalist modern-BBC poorly researched fashion, where is the evidence to support this?.....ahh, edit; |
I did not express my opinion. I just pointed out that there is not universal agreement on this issue.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:58 am Post subject:
|
|
|
| v-un-v wrote: | | Quote: | | Any means that could bring Nazi rule to an end could be justified, which is why a statue of Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris now stands in Whitehall. |
Oh come on! What about Alan Turing? I could argue that Alan Turing brought the Nazi's (and the whole of WW2 if you want) to a standstill. |
Yes, Turing and the Y service and all that.. sure..
But please consider the full meaning of what is implied in this quote:
| Quote: | | Any means that could bring Nazi rule to an end could be justified, which is why a statue of Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris now stands in Whitehall. |
I should also add that World War 2 ( from a british viewpoint ) never was about bringing the Nazi rule to an end. It was first of all about the survival of Britain.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:29 am Post subject:
|
|
|
| mosc wrote: | | v-un-v wrote: |
Nope it's an opinion Mosc- just like yours is. However, in a typical sensationalist modern-BBC poorly researched fashion, where is the evidence to support this?.....ahh, edit; |
I did not express my opinion. I just pointed out that there is not universal agreement on this issue. |
Ah- okay. It was the way you addressed the post I suppose-
| Quote: | | There is not universal agreement on this, Tom. |
I think if you hadn't preceeded it with my name I wouldn't have got so defensive. But as a lifetime peace campaigner and member of CND I feel very passionate about the current fashion to forget the past. It seems we live in a very right-wing thinking culture. It's not good.
The BBC link is very biased and doesn't really break down why the american administration (I'm not discounting the British either) dropped 2 bombs instead of just one.
The second link that Stein posted was better- further reading showed that he couldn't really make up his mind either.
As for the other link...
| Quote: | | Yet the evidence is crystal clear. The use of nuclear weapons to end World War II quickly and decisively averted the death or maiming of hundreds of thousands American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen. It also saved the lives of some 400,000 Allied prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Japanese hands, all of whom were to be executed in the event of an American invasion of Japan. Above all, it saved untold hundreds of thousands more Japanese-perhaps millions-from becoming casualties of pre-invasion bombing and shelling, followed by two invasions and forcible occupation. |
The evidence is not crystal clear at all. This is merely a supposition. How can anyone really really know what might have happened? In a real democracy one needs to be able to own up to one's mistakes. It's clear that the west are still unable to do this. So I'm completely unsurprised that people come back at us with bombs when we offer them our 'neo democracy'
I know I'm preaching to the already converted. Did you read the Spiked essay? |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:36 am Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | | I should also add that World War 2 ( from a british viewpoint ) never was about bringing the Nazi rule to an end. It was first of all about the survival of Britain. |
Oh god- yes I know!
"God save the Queen- The fascist regime"
We should also never forget the Norwegian resistance's part in foiling the Nazi nuclear arms race. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I don´t think it is ethically possible to defend the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is also not possible to defend the saturation bombing policies of Bomber Harris. This is history. This is about war. All these decisions made perfect sense at the time.
As for dropping a nuke on Germany, there weren´t any targets. Germany was broken. Logistically Germany had lost the war on D-Day. What would you nuke in Germany in 1945? Dresden? Berlin? Hamburg? The Ruhr area?
You see my point? There weren´t any targets left and it would not have accomplished much apart from killing a damned lot of women and children.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:03 am Post subject:
|
|
|
A good link.
There weren´t any nuclear arms race at the time though. The german nuclear research was at a dead end. It would have taken them 4-8 years to get there.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:13 am Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | | It would have taken them 4-8 years to get there. |
better safe than sorry 
_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube
| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
The spiked thingie is a bit irving in nature.
| Quote: | | That was why the architects of the Holocaust in Europe were never mentioned as candidates for a 'humanitarian' bombing such as Hiroshima. |
This was war anyway, so calling this a humanitarian bombing is misleading.
We know 3 things.
1. The US did not want Stalin to move in.
2. The US forces were all over the place. It would take a lot of time to set up an invasion force and proper supply lines.
3. A coup d'etat in Japan was not unlikely.
Total war had already been experienced in Europe. Total war, as seen in the last stages of the war in Europe was clearly not a great idea.
Saturation bombing had already been tried in Japan. Bombing all of Japan into submission the Bomber Harris way was not an option. It makes perfect sense to take out Hiroshima and Nagasaki in an act of Hollywood showmanship. It worked out "right".
If you consider what really happened, it is as unlikely or even far more unlikely compared to most alternative histories imaginable.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Last edited by elektro80 on Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | The spiked thingie is a bit irving in nature.
|
Sorry I don't know what you mean by 'Irving'? David Irving?? This article in no way denies the holocaust. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
The same Irving indeed. If you have read some of his books you will see what I mean.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 19
G2 patch files: 1
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| elektro80 wrote: | | The same Irving indeed. If you have read some of his books you will see what I mean. |
Sorry I (we) don't get you. Can you be more specific? Both me and Rosie can find nothing in that article that denies the slaughter of 6 million jewish people. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
brinxmat
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 262
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| Quote: | | Better still, just read some Pinker anyway |
I'm sure that the Pinker book you mention is very interesting and educating. I would however dissuade the casual reader from believing everything this man says. His "mind science" excursions are odd (my "mind" rejects the validity of his arguments due to the lack of its existence).
Read "The Language Instinct", and then its "companion volume" "The Language Instinct Debate" (the updated version — 2005). The first presents the mainstream view of "congnitive" linguistics, and the latter rubbishes this approach, and the constructs that emerge from it due to its misconceptions of all manner of things.
(I don't share the political views of G. Sampson (author of TLID), Pinker's are nearer my own, though they are still extremely right and top of me!)
(What does any of this have to do with electro-music I hear you ask: see the debate of L&J in the reviews section!)
_________________
-- Say "&Eth;onne hit wæs hrenig weðer" |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
Forum index » Discussion » Schmooze
FAQ
Calendar
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Chat Room
