Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject:
loss1234 wrote:
...What i was asking was whether i would be better off INPUTTING a constant tone or a sweeping tone...
OK. Well, it doesn't matter. I did a swept input so that you could see the kinds of signals to expect and the range over which to expect them.
I made that clip because you asked for something to compare against. Have you done that? Can you get to similar chaotic signals? You really need to follow through here, if you can, please.
Quote:
in other words, what works best for an input. a saw? a sine. or a sweeping tone?
As I explained before there is no "best" way to use the unit. To start, I suggest driving with a Tri, since thats what I used for the demos. The results are not too different from what you get with a Sin. I'd leave other driver waveforms for until you have a better feel for how the system works ... if it does work.
yes i know what a sweeping tone is. that is not the issue. my question is whether or not i would get better results using a sweeping tone as the input as opposed to inputting a constant tone. or would would it be better to input noise,etc. thats it. i am not asking about the sweeping the pots. i am only asking what would be the best input signal for creating chaos.
A constant tone may or may not be in one of the ranges which will result in chaotic output, depending on how the other controls are set.
A (slowly) sweeping tone will move between being in a first, second, third, fourth or fifth order oscillation, and will also move through the chaotic regions which exist between them.
Noise (which is forced chaos) probably won't work in a "predictable" way. Not that it wouldn't be interesting to try it out and see what happens. It's just that the chaotic behaviour is a result of combining fixed variables. When they happen to generate a chaotic output, that behaviour is actually a predictable outcome. Chaotic in content, yet predictable in a causative way. Replacing the driving input with noise will probably just output a "modified noise". Does that make sense? _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
i think the next step for me is to try and find a way to create a press and peel of this circuit as i want to make a few of them and have them effect each other.
it would be a good building block i think.
i have been doing some looking and i wondered, have any of you heard about or seen these chua circuits on a cmos chip? I have seen a few academic papers online that refer to a chaos "chip" but maybe these were only made in a very small run for universities. sure would be cool to play with ten of those though!!!
sorry for all my silly questions but this chaos stuff has been my only interest the last week and some of the papers and articles are heavily mathematic and technical which doesnt help me too much.
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:10 am Post subject:
frijitz wrote:
I made that clip because you asked for something to compare against. Have you done that? Can you get to similar chaotic signals? You really need to follow through here, if you can, please.
I'll ask you again. I went out of my way to make the clip you requested. Have compared what you can get with this clip?
sorry i overlooked your first request by missing the post. last night was busy for me with my son and i think i read the post after yours. But i have been trying to tell you what I have been getting and how it compares. As i said last night, i have been listening to your clips and in some respects i am getting what might be considered chaotic behavior in that its not overtly repetivitve and seems to change in chaotic ways. But some of what i am getting seems like FM or LFO.
I have been going through the exact steps you asked me to go through. Once again I will state that I am very happy with the results I am getting, it just doesnt sound exactly like what you are getting.
i wasnt trying to disrespect you and i hope you saw that i did thank you for the clips. I thought i was keeping you posted as much as i could to how this has been working out. as soon as i can digitize them and upload them i do have some samples i can post.
keep in mind i dont have the tools to analyze this visually and all i can go by is my ears and a abstract notion of what chaos is. so part of my giving vague answers is my not being sure if what i am getting is chaos. its not out of being lazy.
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:01 am Post subject:
loss1234 wrote:
As i said last night, i have been listening to your clips and in some respects i am getting what might be considered chaotic behavior in that its not overtly repetivitve and seems to change in chaotic ways. But some of what i am getting seems like FM or LFO.
Sorry, but I can't find where you said that last night. Could you please show me? You did say that yesterday, but it was before I posted the clips.
Quote:
I have been going through the exact steps you asked me to go through. Once again I will state that I am very happy with the results I am getting, it just doesnt sound exactly like what you are getting.
So what are you getting? Why won't you say? I won't sound exactly like the clip, but you should a somewhat similar response as you tune your drive frequency down.
i have said many times what i am getting out of the circuit. i am getting some things that sound like an lfo. some things that sound very noisy and random.
and i am also getting some things that i will post later after work that i think might be chaotic.
some of the sounds are almost like little rhythms. as i said, not 4/4 rhythms either but really complex repetitions.
i also said many times i am very happy with the circuit. i think i will stop asking questions about it. i didnt mean to cause any tension but i feel it brewing. i have repeatedly said thank you in this thread and repeatedly said what a great circuit this is and have told many people i know about it.
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:35 am Post subject:
loss1234 wrote:
i also said many times i am very happy with the circuit. i think i will stop asking questions about it. i didnt mean to cause any tension but i feel it brewing. i have repeatedly said thank you in this thread and repeatedly said what a great circuit this is and have told many people i know about it.
Once again, I am very happy that you are finding the circuit useful.
But ... when you ask for help and someone tries to help you by offering suggestions as to what to do, then you need to try the suggestions and report back. You have not been willing to do this, either here or in previous threads. As far as I can see, my setting up the EZChaos again, recording a clip and posting it with detailed instructions as to how to reproduce it were of no help to you at all, since your statements about what you are seeing are the same now as they were before the clip was posted.
You may have noticed that several people who have unsuccessfully tried to help you before have been reluctant in giving you further advice. Sorry to have to say this, but you bring this on yourself by failing to cooperate with those trying to help you.
I hope you understand that there isn't any personal animosity here -- I wouldn't still be trying to help you if there were.
some of the sounds are almost like little rhythms. as i said, not 4/4 rhythms either but really complex repetitions.
That sounds chaotic enough to me maybe you should post some examples here, like you suggested earlier. I'd like to hear 'm ...
As to the mis-communications that have been going on I think it might help if you could formulate things a bit stricter, maybe hit send some seconds later after a re-read. Communications on a forum seem to need more energy than casual talking, probably for lack of visual feedback.
Anyway, please don't give up on us, at the very least we all can admire your energy in putting things together
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:59 am Post subject:
samples
ok. here are some clips.
these are mostly just a vco playing one note fed into the circuit. a few might have an lfo fed in. but no notes are being changed. on a few i tried to sweep into the chaos so you could hear what came before it got crazy. i think i got better results with the vco (with cap change) than with the lfo (with cap changed back)
sweep in and out ez.mp3
Description:
this one is mainly a lfo like thing but listen for it as it transitions into what i think is chaos.
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:23 am Post subject:
Re: samples
loss1234 wrote:
ok. here are some clips.
Yeah, definitely working.
It sounds like you are using very deep modulation of your VCO, no? Maybe even a 1V/oct input? My reference demo was make with much less depth; that would probably explain why you didn't connect with the demo.
But I can pick out all the familiar patterns that the unit makes. For example, on guessinggameez you are in the region represented by the second photo on the web page. The system sometimes goes around one loop, sometimes around the other and sometimes bounces back and forth.
Geez, seven hours worth? But yeah, most people who play with it get captured for quite a while.
i have been doing nothing but playing with this for days!
Ian, let me explain my vco so maybe you could help me figure out how to use Less modulation. my ray wilson vco has 4 cv inputs (which i assume are all 1v/oct ---maybe not. i will check the schematic. what is the difference between a regular cv input and a 1/v ovt input) and a linear input. none of these have pots for changing the amount of modulation.
so i think what you are saying is it might be useful to find a way to attenuate these inputs? (i know every synth i have ever owned always had a "depth" control for the lfo, which i think basically just controls how much of the signal gets injected.)
that shows a CV input setup. i notice that for a variable cv in, they show a 33k resistor instead of a 100k (like on the 1/v oct). is this a good setup?
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:01 am Post subject:
loss1234 wrote:
my ray wilson vco has 4 cv inputs (which i assume are all 1v/oct ---maybe not. i will check the schematic. what is the difference between a regular cv input and a 1/v ovt input) and a linear input. none of these have pots for changing the amount of modulation.
That's amazing!
Ray doesn't explain anywhere about how to incorporate variable modulation input. He must assume that everyone knows how to do this.
All you have to do is to hook up one of the 100k input resistors to a pot. The input resistor goes to the pot slider, your modulating signal goes to a jack connected to the top of the pot and the bottom of the pot goes to ground. Like this:
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir2.htm
(Oh, and if you ever want a good VCO, that one's a solid choice. )
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: cv inputs
loss1234 wrote:
there is a picture at this link (figure 2)
http://home.att.net/~synthsource/ens76/vco1.htm
(taken from electronotes)
that shows a CV input setup. i notice that for a variable cv in, they show a 33k resistor instead of a 100k (like on the 1/v oct). is this a good setup?
That's a good writeup (of course). You should study it. (And note the second to last link.)
I'd stick with 100k rather than 33k, unless you need more modulation than you already have.
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:25 am Post subject:
Re: cv inputs
loss1234 wrote:
that shows a CV input setup. i notice that for a variable cv in, they show a 33k resistor instead of a 100k (like on the 1/v oct). is this a good setup?
i guess i never even thought before to turn DOWN the cv inputs. back to the drawing board.
It's quite possibly not obvious within the photo of my machine at my site, but since the early 90's I've almost been a fanatic for 'amount controls' for inputs as well as outputs. As well as multiples of outputs. Overall, this'll allow me to control how much of Output X, Y, Z are fed into Input A, B, C / etc.
Of course my frame of mind requires panel space but ...... for me with sticking with the 19" rack panel format, I've tons of real estate to play with.
As Ian'd said as well - I use 100k Linear pots for such.
i have been doing nothing but playing with this for days!
Can imagine
Some nice sounds, but indeed some attenuators might come in handy here. I thought the "mean voice" thingie to be really nice, it's more subtle than the others.
i dont have any panel space left on the vco for attenuator pots...so tired of having limited rack/ apartment space...always trying to cram too much in one single or double panel..
ANYWAY,,i made an external attenuator. i took two jacks and a 1m pot and wired it all together. now this seems to attenuate the signal quite a bit but certainly (Surprisingly) not all the way down to zero signal.
is this the same as adding the pot TO the vco itself? i tried 100k too but it was way to little range.
the setup i was using tonight was..
lfo into chaos. chaos into outboard attenuator. attenuator into vco.
starting to make a big difference. more subtle shading
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:38 am Post subject:
loss1234 wrote:
ANYWAY,,i made an external attenuator. i took two jacks and a 1m pot and wired it all together. now this seems to attenuate the signal quite a bit but certainly (Surprisingly) not all the way down to zero signal.
You did it wrong. Do it the way the EN article you referenced shows, or the way I told you. The way you did it you will only get to 10:1 attenuation.
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