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v-un-v
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:
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| brinxmat wrote: | | What does any of this have to do with electro-music I hear you ask: see the debate of L&J in the reviews section!) |
This is the 'schmooze' section. In this section topics are deliberately 'off topic' because thats the very nature of this section.
I imagine this is because you disagree with what I am discussing. Well that's fine -but you don't have to get involved if you don't want to. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | The same Irving indeed. If you have read some of his books you will see what I mean. |
Sorry I (we) don't get you. Can you be more specific? Both me and Rosie can find nothing in that article that denies the slaughter of 6 million jewish people. |
I never said that. As for Irving and his Holocaust denial, the poor thing is a mess. One of his most impressive inventions yet is his "the Allies burned all the jews themselves because the jews were in Dresden when ..." and so forth..
However, the holocaust denial thing is not what Irving does best. The spiked article is a piece of clever Irving style analysis. It is of course useless.
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | The spiked article is a piece of clever Irving style analysis. It is of course useless. |
I get you now  I've never ever wanted to pay any attention to Irving- yet alone read his books- so I can't make any judgment there, but Spiked is a good antidote to the waves of constant drivel that we Brits have to put up with- but yes, what unbeliever really wants to listen to a bunch of marxists even if they are making a valid point? |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:26 am Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | The spiked article is a piece of clever Irving style analysis. It is of course useless. |
I get you now I've never ever wanted to pay any attention to Irving- yet alone read his books- so I can't make any judgment there, but Spiked is a good antidote to the waves of constant drivel that we Brits have to put up with- but yes, what unbeliever really wants to listen to a bunch of marxists even if they are making a valid point? |
There is a lot to be said about the prewar Japanese-US conflict. I am sure your average brit marxist would love to dig into all that. This particular analysis isn´t very impressive though. There is some truth in some of the ideas presented but they aren´t taking it anywhere.
It is partly true that the nuking of Japan has been presented as an humanitarian effort, but this is mostly based on a basic misunderstanding of the available sources.
Re Irving, he did get a lot of books published "early on" and this means a lot of other books are using his writings as sources. This means I have been forced to read his books. He is highly unpopular today. It is easy to understand why.
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seraph
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:40 am Post subject:
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| Marx Brothers wrote: | We're four of the three musketeers.
We've been together for years.
Athos, Pathos, Mathos, (horn),
Four of the three musketeers.
We fight for the King, for the Queen, for the Jack,
And we're first at the front
When the front's at the back.
Three cheers for Richelieu,
Here's how we give him the cheers. (Business)
The foe trembles each time it hears
This motto ring in its ears.
It's one for all and two for five.
We're four of the three musketeers. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:42 am Post subject:
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Right...  
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seraph
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:45 am Post subject:
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monday morning blues...you know 
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:51 am Post subject:
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I am sure you can aquire a Jesus gun and a star spangled elephant without going republican.. but what do I know..
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-10193.html
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seraph
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:59 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | .. but what do I know.. |
right, you are not vey reliable on a matter like that, maybe on reindeers and such...
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:00 am Post subject:
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I recently had a trip to Japan. It is funny to say how horrible the war was, or what evil the nuclear bombings were. But the only victims here were the japanese...who took the whole thing as they take most things -- with a lot of careful thought and true introspection. In the end, the Japanese themselves decided they had gotten far too big headed, and this was a wakeup call / reality check that appealed to compassion, and was related to their heritage in Buddhism. Ie- sometimes the worst things are for the best, because it was their fault for getting in that position (not my attitude, but theirs!). That can be argued as well, but whatever. the Japanese as a culture and people have a high regard for American people & culture, and hold little or no baggage about the whole affair. Actions it seems, no matter how evil they are perceived, can be forgiven. The world should take note.
Somehow related to recent world affairs, Japan, after 50 years of having no military other than that for self-defense, is now considering employing a full military of it's own. This is a current issue in Japan, and as far as I know is proposed for public vote in the near future. |
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:49 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | There is some truth in some of the ideas presented but they aren´t taking it anywhere.
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That's one of my biggest criticisms with Spiked (and most 'Socialist Workers' etc) is although they tend to point out what is generally true, they are never prepared to offer solutions. Passive politics. |
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Stanley Pain
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:18 am Post subject:
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i run a department in an educational establishment and i feel the weight and pressure of making decisions that affect the educational future of students and the professional lives of several members of staff.
so god knows how the American leadership felt about using the weapon that they had. personally i think the decision boiled down to casualties, resources, time and all of those would have had an impact on the politics of the decision.
with thousands of lives being lost every day, the pressure to make a decision must have been intolerable.
i totally understand why they made the decision and i don't think anyone is in a position to criticise the decision. the use of a nuclear weapon makes most people feel uncomfortable and rightly so.
deal with it the way the japanese culture deals with it. use it as a warning. feel very, very humble that we humans have the capacity for such destruction. remember what happens when a conflict is not contained. see the end of the world and take the longest detour around it as possible.
and yes, the nuclear bombs seem quite tame in comparison to bomber harris's campaign. simply because harris's campaign is old technology doesn't lessen it's impact, although you could argue that the after affects of the atomic strikes differentiate the two campaigns somewhat. |
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brinxmat
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:36 am Post subject:
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Er…
When I said:
| Quote: | | What does any of this have to do with electro-music I hear you ask: see the debate of L&J in the reviews section!) |
"Any" referred to my comments, not yours. I should have made this clearer, which is why I am writing this.
| v-un-v wrote: | | This is the 'schmooze' section. In this section topics are deliberately 'off topic' because thats the very nature of this section. |
Yes, this is common knowledge, hence any interpretation of the scope of any would tend to include "what I was writing", and not "what anyone else was writing". I believe.
| Quote: |
I imagine this is because you disagree with what I am discussing. Well that's fine -but you don't have to get involved if you don't want to.
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You imagine correctly only to the extent outlined in what I said. If i didn't want to get involved, I wouldn't — mind you, if I am "structured" mentally, I probably get involved because I have a mental imperative to do so. |
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:46 am Post subject:
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| Stanley Pain wrote: | | i totally understand why they made the decision and i don't think anyone is in a position to criticise the decision. |
I don't. I don't understand at all.
| Stanley Pain wrote: |
deal with it the way the japanese culture deals with it. |
The Japanese dealt with it by having no atomic power and no atomic weapons. We have never dealt with it like that (probably because we've never had the joy of being vapourized alive). So I'm afraid I haven't a clue what you are getting at. |
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paul e.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:53 am Post subject:
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my 2 cents
you can never be too sure about a Canadian
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:46 am Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | Stanley Pain wrote: | | i totally understand why they made the decision and i don't think anyone is in a position to criticise the decision. |
I don't. I don't understand at all. |
See this from a miltary perspective. Although Germany was in effect completely broken the Operation Wacht Am Rhein still happened. The Ardennes Offensive came as a shock. The Allies simply weren´t prepared for what turned into the Battle of the Bulge. The Russians had a hard time too. The Oderbruch incident is a good example. General Kazakhov had 8983 artillery pieces, with up to 270 guns per kilometre on the breakthrough sectors. This means there was a field gun every 4 metres, including 152mm and 203mm howitzers, heavy mortars and full regiments of katyusha rocket launchers. the 1st Belorussian front had a stockpile of 7 million shells of which approx. one and a quarter million shells were fired the first day of the Oder offensive. Still, crossing the Oder became a very costly manouver indeed.
It is very understandable that the US did not want to invade Japan. And the Bomber Harris way had already been tried. They had burned Tokyo already. Clearly the generals expected another Tarawa, but scaled accordingly. Tarawa is very tiny island. Japan is a lot bigger.
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Last edited by elektro80 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elektro80
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:
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| brinxmat wrote: |
(What does any of this have to do with electro-music I hear you ask: see the debate of L&J in the reviews section!) |
Schmooze is a forum where just about anything goes. Many of the discussions are stream of consciousness.
Atomic bombs probably have had as much impact on the music that many of us write and listen too as has anything else. At least they have for me. I was conceived just about the time that photo was taken, if my math is correct. Isn't that romantic?
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Stanley Pain
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:44 am Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | Stanley Pain wrote: | | i totally understand why they made the decision and i don't think anyone is in a position to criticise the decision. |
I don't. I don't understand at all.
| Stanley Pain wrote: |
deal with it the way the japanese culture deals with it. |
The Japanese dealt with it by having no atomic power and no atomic weapons. We have never dealt with it like that (probably because we've never had the joy of being vapourized alive). So I'm afraid I haven't a clue what you are getting at. |
it's like culling animals, which may or may not be a distasteful comparison depending on your disposition. what's not to understand? they wanted less casualties, and although i'm prepared to entertain the notion that it was for entirely selfish reasons, the Japanese probably did fare better with 2 nuclear bombs than a full scale land assault.
i'm sure even today, many japanese would be proud to say that their army would have fought to the death to withstand an occupation.
if someone comes at you with a knife, a punch on the nose and/or kick in the balls works far more effectively than persuasion. however, you're welcome to try persuasion.
and the Japanese did build a nuclear arsenal because they weren't allowed a military, let alone nuclear capability. |
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v-un-v
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject:
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| Stanley Pain wrote: |
if someone comes at you with a knife, |
I'll run away. |
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ian-s
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | The Japanese dealt with it by having no atomic power and no atomic weapons. |
They do have atomic power, since the 60's.
I have always wondered about the 2nd bomb though. Three days later?  |
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject:
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| g2ian wrote: |
They do have atomic power, since the 60's.
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Yes. My mistake.
| g2ian wrote: |
I have always wondered about the 2nd bomb though. Three days later? |
That's a very good point- and it opens up many possibilities.
One of which could be- because the blast IS so horrific this could have been a tactic used to scare the hell out of the Japanese (or if you like- anyone - and you must remember that the whole world had its eyes on Japan at that time- including the Soviet Union). A similar tactic used in the recent bomb blasts in London. The bombers hit two weeks after the first assault. I think what happened really set in after the second albeit foiled attack.
Interestingly though many Japanese citizens 'forgot' what happened over the period of the blasts in something known as 'psychic shock'*- a mental condition that was documented after the A-bomb blast. This phenomenon happens after someone receives shock which is too much for the human brain to cope with (like 'shell-shock' but on a greater scale).
* http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1088250
| Quote: | | Gradual psychic exhaustion from continued fear is an important disposing cause of shell shock, particularly in men of neuropathic predisposition. In such subjects it may suffice to cause shell shock per se. In the vast majority of cases of shell shock, the exciting cause is some special psychic shock. Horrible sights are the most frequent and potent factor in the production of this shock. Losses and the fright of being buried are also important in this respect. |
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deknow
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | I have always wondered about the 2nd bomb though. Three days later? |
...i wonder about this too, especially in the light of the begining of this thread. if japan was so ready to surrender, why didn't they do so durring these 3 days?
i like the "coming at you with a knife" way of looking at this (and, having been in a situation where some crackheads were looking to steal some pot that didn't exist....ended with first a gun in my face, then being tied up on the kitchen floor with phone cords and having a gun put in my mouth....there isn't always the option to run away).
is anyone going to argue that no one should have been at war with japan? (pearl harbor makes that a tough sell). if you are in a fight, you get punched, do you punch back once and see what happens? i think not.
as a side note, durring the above mentioned incident, "dead cities" by fsol was playing loud on the stereo....i can't really listen to it anymore.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject:
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The wikipedia entry isn´t bad at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
| Quote: | | The Battle of Okinawa showed this determination to fight on at all costs. More than 120,000 Japanese and 18,000 American troops were killed in the bloodiest battle of the Pacific theater, just 8 weeks before Japan's final surrender. In fact, more civilians died in the Battle of Okinawa than did in the initial blast of the atomic bombings |
| Quote: | After the realization that the destruction of Hiroshima was from a nuclear weapon, the civilian leadership gained more and more traction in its argument that Japan had to concede defeat and accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. Even after the destruction of Nagasaki, the Emperor himself needed to intervene to end a deadlock in the cabinet.
According to some Japanese historians, Japanese civilian leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, as were the military men in the war cabinet. (Because the cabinet functioned by consensus, even one holdout could prevent it from accepting the Declaration.) Thus the peace faction seized on the bombing as a new argument to force surrender. |
| Quote: | | Supporters of the bombing also point out that waiting for the Japanese to surrender was not a cost-free option—as a result of the war, noncombatants were dying throughout Asia at a rate of about 200,000 per month. The firebombing had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan, since February of 1945, directly and indirectly. That intensive conventional bombing would have continued prior to an invasion. The submarine blockade and the U.S. Army Air Force's mining operation, Operation Starvation, had effectively cut off Japan's imports. A complementary operation against Japan's railways was about to begin, isolating the cities of southern Honshu from the food grown elsewhere in the Home Islands. This, combined with the delay in relief supplies from the Allies, could have resulted in a far greater death toll in Japan, due to famine and malnutrition, than actually occurred in the attacks. "Immediately after the defeat, some estimated that 10 million people were likely to starve to death," noted historian Daikichi Irokawa. Meanwhile, in addition to the Soviet attacks, offensives were scheduled for September in southern China, and Malaysia. |
| Quote: | | The Americans anticipated losing many soldiers in the planned invasion of Japan, although the actual number of expected fatalities and wounded is subject to some debate and depends on the persistence and reliability of Japanese resistance and whether the Americans would have invaded only Kyushu in November 1945 or if a follow up landing near Tokyo, projected for March of 1946, would have been needed. Years after the war, Secretary of State James Byrnes claimed that 500,000 American lives would have been lost—and that number has since been repeated authoritatively, but in the summer of 1945, U.S. military planners projected 20,000–110,000 combat deaths from the initial November 1945 invasion, with about three to four times that number wounded. (Total U.S. combat deaths on all fronts in World War II in nearly four years of war were 292,000.) However, these estimates were done using intelligence that grossly underestimated Japanese strength being gathered for the battle of Kyushu in numbers of soldiers and kamikazes, by factors of at least three. Many military advisors held that a worst-case scenario could involve up to 1,000,000 American casualties. |
Read the lot at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
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